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During Copenhagen Fashion Week’s autumn-winter 2020 season, Scandinavia Standard and Copenhagen International Fashion Fair (CIFF) held a panel discussion and exhibition focused on diversity and inclusion in Danish fashion. The talk was moderated by Danish-American actress Amelia Hoy; the panelists were in futurum co-founder Moussa Mchangama, model and gender activist Vincent Bier, and journalist Heidi Laura. The exhibition featured the work of Zozo Ntokazi Mposula, the photographer behind the Afro-Scandinavian street style platform My Beautiful People.
The panel and subsequent question & answer session was a follow-up to our article exploring this topic. Subjects covered included racial diversity, size and disability inclusivity, gender presentation, and so much more. Because the three panelists come from a variety of backgrounds and hold widely varied jobs within fashion, the perspectives offered were rich and nuanced, with a broad outlook that is so often lacking in Danish fashion.
This panel was only a small first step to addressing issues of inclusion more widely on both Scandinavia Standard and through the structures of Copenhagen Fashion Week, such as CIFF.
Watch our panel during Copenhagen Fashion Week for an insightful exploration of diversity and inclusion in the Danish fashion industry:
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Read the full transcript here:
Amelia Hoy
And, welcome to all of you. We have been very excited about this event for many reasons but, needless to say very excited that there’s so many people that showed up to be here today. Now, when you start to talk about diversity and inclusion in a 45-minute panel debate, you wonder what you possibly can solve. We’re obviously not here to solve anything, we’re here to illuminate and begin to illustrate some of the structures within the fashion industry that can be changed and that need change, bottom line.
So, again, be curious, be critical, and hopefully if you take anything away from this discussion, it’s thinking in a slightly different way than you have before. So, let’s see how much we can cover in 45 minutes [chuckle] without all being very depressed about the situation of the world. With me here are some very qualified and very diverse panelists. Please introduce yourselves.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
So my name is Laura, I’m a journalist and writer, I cover culture and especially design and fashion with the Weekendavisen weekly paper here in Denmark. And I’ve been really interested for several years now about this whole transformation that’s just slowly beginning to happen in the fashion world.
Amelia Hoy
Thank you.
Vincent Beier
My name is Vincent. I am a model. I always identified as a guy, but, have always worn heels and make-up and dresses. So, I work as a female model and therefore also a gender activist.
Moussa Mchangama: My name is Moussa Mchangama, I’m the co-founder of a consultancy called In Futurum, and I write about culture, diversity, inclusion that works for a range of Danish media and do a lot of podcasts and some TV.
Amelia Hoy
All right, let’s give ’em a round of applause.
[applause]
Amelia Hoy
Thank you all for being here, and I know from several of our smaller discussions about this, we all have different eyes on the beast, so to speak. Moussa, I know you’ve also spent a lot of time working in fashion editorial businesses. Now, from that perspective, what are some of the first structural problems or even lack of diversity that comes to mind when we begin to open up the envelope?
Moussa Mchangama
Right. When we’re talking about this, I think it’s important to consider the fashion industry historically, ’cause fashion as a concept was historically invented to make rich people look richer, and thereby, make everyone else not look rich. So it’s inherently a class divider. And I think that’s quite important when talking about these things. ‘Cause it was intended at least for a very small group of people who are reproducing their own image again and again and again and again, while disconnecting from the rest of the world through their visual style.
And, of course the industry within the last 20-30 years has been greatly commercialised and is now available to the masses in terms of fast fashion and the high street and everything. But it’s still those same mechanisms. The industry in itself, the people who work in the industry… There’s still a relatively uniform heterogen… No, homogenic of course, not heterogen, group of people that are reproducing the structures that they have inherited from days gone by so to say.
And so I think when we’re talking about diversity, when we’re talking about including new people in fashion, whether it be in magazines, on catwalks, on yes, designers in terms of body, in terms of sizes, in terms of gender, in terms of ethnicity, in terms of capability, in terms of everything; age for example, we’re generally talking about a very structural change of the entire industry. ‘Cause it was never intended to include people in the first place. And so, these sort of ideas about diversity and inclusion that we’re talking about today, and that I have experienced a lot as well, being in this industry for the last 10 years, are inherently a clash with the structures that represent and recreate fashion as is. And I think that’s important to note and to remember when we’re talking about this.
Amelia Hoy
Absolutely. And speaking of inclusion, not only the inclusion that we see when we look at a catwalk, we look at a look-book, we’re going, “Oh, those are representations of people that look like me, or my neighbour or my friends.” We also have to look at the way we use our language and the way we discuss and build these structures around fashion in our minds. Cultural appropriation is a huge problem right now within the fashion industry, where you lend pieces from other cultures and put them on catwalks and show no appreciation for where they come from originally. And with all of that language and whatnot, Vincent, what are you experiencing? Because obviously just your very existence is breaking some of the structures, and do you notice that the languages that’s used around you, and for you, is even appropriate?
Vincent Beier
I am experiencing that the people within the power of fashion have felt the need to accept me but not understand what I’m about, or why I’m there. So I don’t think people actually look at how to talk about me, or how to represent me, or how to use me and my voice within their environment. Yeah, I don’t think yeah, no.
Amelia Hoy
It hasn’t even crossed their mind that maybe this would be an appropriate time to start talking about women’s wear versus men’s wear, which by its own definition is extremely archaic because what is that? I’m wearing men’s wear, you’re wearing men’s wear. Yes, that’s… Yeah. What is it? What is woman? What is man? All of these discussions which brings me to something that you’re also extremely aware of, which is the use of gender and the use of size and the use of body inclusivity. You mentioned quickly, Moussa, also able bodies. What is that? Why are we not seeing more of that do you think? Or the lack thereof yeah.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
Yeah, and I mean when you really begin to think about who is included, who is excluded within fashion, the more you think about it, the more you reach the conclusion that most of us are excluded actually. And this has very much to do with what kind of body are we making fashion for. We have had now for decades, this system of standard sizes, well, they don’t fit anybody. They actually don’t fit any… Very few people, how many here would feel that they can put on a standard size and it’s perfect for them? Hardly anybody.
So when we get down to that level, it’s amazing that we haven’t been protesting for so long already, that we want to get clothes that are actually made for our very different bodies. And for the age that we have whatever age we may have. And also clothes that do consider our needs be they needs we have because we are disabled or needs we have because of our culture or our religion or just our way of life. I mean, if you’re a parent of small children, you need clothes that work with that.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
And it’s amazing that this should be the exit point for designing. This is how we should think about making clothes, and we’re just not there yet, and there’s such a long way to go on that yet, and I think that’s mind-boggling. So we need to think about completely transforming our idea about how to make clothes that actually work for people.
Amelia Hoy
Absolutely. Now, one thing that we did discuss a lot prior to this panel was the lack of designers that represent diversity, because it’s one thing to sit here and say, “Well, we want the end product to look like this, we want the end product to include us.” But if in the room of creatives, there was no one there looking like us, how are they all of a sudden gonna go, “Oh, let’s do this.” Is that something that you’re also experiencing and… Go ahead, Moussa, how is that affecting the industry?
Moussa Mchangama
Well, I mean, one has just to look at a lot of the shitstorms that has happened within the fashion industry for the last couple of years, to major international luxury fashion houses like Gucci, like Prada, The Works, Valentino, to see that what is going on in the actual fashion houses never sort of gets through the sort of the diversity machine, the different people with different perspectives sort of machines actually come out. And I think it comes back to the fact of sort of recreation of self, and that you recreate your own image so to say. And I think we are at an incredibly exciting time right now because we’re seeing that all of these old institutions, all of these old brands, the old systems, the old media. Also, print media, for example, are losing a bit of their power in the way that a lot of people now have started to say, “Well, you always told us that you sold the fantasy.” You sold the fantasy, that was the story about the narrative around fashion, there was a… This is the fantasy life, it’s the fantasy look, it’s the fantasy size, it’s the fantasy youth, whatever.
And so many more people now have access, first of all, to media and to images because of social media, they also have access to people who actually represent them, who look like them, who want something different, and they also have access to money and they can actually purchase something. So increasingly, a lot of people are starting to say, “Well, if that’s your fantasy, I don’t buy it. I don’t like that fantasy anymore. That fantasy is excluding me, it’s oppressing me, it’s hurting me, it’s not allowing me to be me,” and I think those are some of the clashes that we’re seeing right now which are interesting in the way that a lot of the old sort of brands, a lot of the old designers, powerhouses in the industry… Often, if you notice whenever a shitstorm is there, they will start out by saying, “Well, we never meant to hurt anyone so we’re sorry that you got this the wrong way.”
Amelia Hoy
Right.
Moussa Mchangama
Which of course is complete bullshit. It should be, “We’re sorry that we did something that hurt you, we will go back into the drawing room, relearn what we shouldn’t have done and then go out and do something new.” We as the sort of the receivers of something did not receive anything in the wrong way, they did something in the bad way. And so I think that highlights this change that it’s a fundamental change towards a different understanding of what fashion is, who it’s for. Who made it? How do we talk about it? Is it just grabbing cultures, grabbing people, grabbing “Ooh, now it’s super interesting to do something with ballroom culture,” or whatever. We can do tick, boom. And then the next season we can throw it away again because it was just a trend. It doesn’t work like that anymore. And I think people are increasingly becoming aware of that. We need to work in different ways.
Amelia Hoy
Absolutely, yes. Go ahead.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
And I feel on that note, it’s so interesting that when groups are finally discovered, it always turns out that they’re so different from what everybody thought. I mean, Muslim women, nobody was really thinking about them fashion-wise, and then suddenly we have seen in just a few years this rise of modest fashion. It’s so amazing. It’s really taking it very seriously. What do they want? And what do they actually want? Well, they wanna look fabulous, they wanna have great clothes. It’s not just about being covered, it’s about, I would say, honoring your body, and you have to listen to people to get to that point where you can make the things they want. So we’ve seen that and we’ve seen this also really interesting rise in what is now called not plus size but curvy fashion, I still hate that word, can we please find something else, a different way to talk about bodies that are not standard size.
We have to find out what is it that they actually want. And I think that’s so interesting for designers coming into this field today wanting to think about fashion in a new way, go explore, be anthropologist, really get to know the people that you wanna produce clothes for.
Amelia Hoy
Absolutely, and in going back to the cultural appropriation situation, where you will see big fashion houses doing typically black or African hair styles on white or Caucasian women or males, and there’s no exchange back. So it’s not a cultural exchange, it’s just going one way from the oppressor about the oppressed, it’s like, well, if you love black culture then love black people, put them on your runway too. It’s not that hard to do. I think we’re beginning to see more and more of that, but we still have such a long way to go, and I know you Vincent, you’re on the tail end of these discussions or lack of discussions within the designing boards, because then they look at the different looks and like, “Okay, how are we gonna cast this?” So tell us a little bit about what you’re experiencing in that stage of the fashion industry.
Vincent Beier
I feel like the casting process is a lot of discrimination. They always feel the need to please the consumer, so for example, they’ll hire me, ’cause then they have the gender diversity or they hire a black girl because then they have a person of colour. But I don’t think they actually understand why they are hiring him, they just know that the consumer has a voice now, so they just are trying to please, but without actually thinking of why or how to please. So it’s very much like some very stupid conversations in a small room of very privileged, white, often men sitting and discussing how to make more money off minorities.
[applause]
Moussa Mchangama
Can I add something?
Amelia Hoy
Please.
Moussa Mchangama
‘Cause I think what you just said perfectly sort of exemplifies how… We’re sitting up here at a debate during Fashion Week, so obviously we have also risen to a position of power within the industry and are using our voice to talk about some of these things, but… I started out in the industry 10 years ago, as a fashion assistant at a now closed magazine called Cover Magazine, and was one of a very, very, very limited group of people of colour in the industry at that time, at least, and felt incredibly lonely. And I think it becomes apparent when you are a minority person, how hurtful it can be to be cast in that very specific storyline of, we just need you to be this for us right now, and then as soon as you leave the door we didn’t learn anything, we didn’t consider it in anyway, you were just sort of a poster for something that we could show and we could flag and say, “Oh hey, yeah, we work with diversity.”
Moussa Mchangama
But the whole idea, of course, is that diversity isn’t that… You have one picture and then you have one of each person, that’s not the point, the point is that, that value transgresses into the entirety of your business. And you don’t necessarily, in my opinion, have to design for everybody. That’s the same as designing for no-one basically. But it will be really, really nice if people actually took a stand and said, “We wanna be here for you specifically, we wanna do this for you and that you… ” That’s what would be interesting, would be very interesting if it was not just for very young, very skinny, very rich white girls, and when I’m… Sorry. But when I’m talking to a lot of designers…
[applause]
Moussa Mchangama
When I’m talking to a lot of designers and when I advise them, and we work with them strategically on developing sustainability strategies and diversity strategies, often when we ask them about their design process, and I think it’s very much connected to what you just said, we say, “Well, who are you designing to, who’s your sort of… Who’s the fantasy that you’re designing? Who you’re promoting?” And they say, “Well, she’s young, she’s sort of like this influencer that we like… ”
Moussa Mchangama
We don’t really know her.
Amelia Hoy
Lots of followers.
Moussa Mchangama
She’s like, she has lots of followers and lots of money, she just loves fashion, and she buys new things, all the time.” I’m like, “Who is this girl?”
[laughter]
Moussa Mchangama
You don’t know her. No-one, to my knowledge, unless they have a filthy amount of money goes out and buys new stuff, every single… We don’t, and of course, a lot of people do, but it’s like you actually don’t know the person you designed to. I mean, that’s a major problem, you design to a fantasy that excludes, excludes most people.
Amelia Hoy
And also this fantasy, again, who is the fantasy for and are we still really looking at more and more and more, buying more and more and more, and I absolutely think that the concept of diversity is intrinsically linked with sustainability. It’s absolutely linked with it. When you look at fast fashion brands where the whole business model is based on the exploitation of very wealthy white people, not the exploitation of them… The exploitation of brown people in countries we don’t know how to pronounce, creating products for very, very wealthy white people in countries we live in. So that whole idea of a business model needs to be deconstructed because that’s effectively how you’re making your clothing, it’s really hard to invite those people that you’re oppressing to create your product for too little amount of money and then sell it for way more. It’s hard to start to think of these people as actually, as people, as consumers and as activists within what we’re doing.
So I’d love to hear your takes on how… We touch upon it, because everything is structural, so how do you see the concept of sustainability needing to link with the idea of diversity?
Heidi Hadassah Laura
Oh, there’s no way around it. This is really deep. I mean sustainability is all about make less, make it better. And in order to make it better, you really have to think again about who is going to wear these clothes and you have to really factor in how will this be the right thing for you? And I think we need to… Especially to begin to think about making clothes that fit bodies in a different way. We have to get rid more or less of the standard size system and think completely different about how do we get our clothes. Maybe we go to a shop and get our measures taken, decide on what we want, maybe it would be made for us somewhere else, shipped to us. We can have it exactly according to our needs. All these business models, they have to be explored.
And just now, it’s difficult even at the most basic level. And we’re training designers in design schools, they don’t get to think about all this. I think it’s getting better here in Denmark, but in so many places, you’re still just taught how to use a standard size system that… It’s so interesting, the largest size for women in Europe is 42. That’s actually the medium size. That kind of… If you measure all women, the size that’s exactly in the middle, that’s 42. This is what you can get at largest. So everybody beyond that is just out of the system.
So already there, this is what you’re taught to do in design school. And people who are in the design school may want to experiment a bit with clothes for different groups, they will often get told that, “Oh sorry, that’s too ethnic,” perhaps or “That’s not marketable.” So it’s killed right at the beginning. So this is very, very deep transformation that has to come and it’s all linked together.
Amelia Hoy
Vincent, you were recently centre in a situation where both language and the opportunity to elevate from maybe the current status quo was not taken. Would you mind telling a little bit about your perspective on what happened? Because I think what we’re trying to do here is also just illustrate the different levels of where these situations are happening within the industry. So we’d love for you to share that experience.
Vincent Beier
So DR, our national television, made a TV programme on diversity within fashion and uses almost half of this programme to call me out for being wrong because I am a guy wearing a dress and heels. So two powerful people from the fashion industry who’s been in the Danish fashion industry for years, and if you ask me, are in a very powerful position because they know literally everyone within Denmark, are sitting and having a conversation about me and about people like me, calling me wrong and people like me wrong and telling me I’m too feminine to look sexy in a dress or I’m too feminine of a guy to be okay.
I think it’s a great example of how the powerful people within the fashion industry doesn’t realise that the people taking over after them are the people they are sitting and taking down. And I don’t think they know that they need to include more than they have to exclude with… ‘Cause I think the point of this TV show was to tell how diverse and respectful and accepting they actually was but missed the point. Yeah, I just think people need to actually speak with the people that they are trying to make money off or make, yeah, a business off.
Amelia Hoy
My biggest fear about this panel is that everyone here goes home and says, “Yes, I attended the thing on diversity, cool. What’s next on my list?” Please continue to be critical and critical in your thinking when you consume and not just consume with your money, but also consume with your eyes, fashion and art in general. Yeah, Moussa, please go ahead.
Moussa Mchangama
No, I just wanted to add to what Vincent was saying ’cause I think that is incredibly important that if we as an industry move towards working with more minority people, and more minority people that being people of colour, people of different gender identities, anything sort of working in this industry, we also need to realize that we need to be considerate in a very different way. This industry has never been considerate, it’s been the other way around of actually just being super… In the fantasy building, being very sort of, “This is the right way and everyone who’s in the way of that can kinda fuck off.” So pardon my French.
And I think if we are working with minority people… ‘Cause there has never been a need to be very considerate. And suddenly, when we work with people who their entire life has been oppressed and hasn’t had a voice, hasn’t had access to the same wealth or the same status, education, healthcare, anything, sort of structurally oppressed, when you start working with them, then you need to consider how you enter a room. You need to consider how you talk, you need to consider how to sort of go about that. Because otherwise, you end up hurting people and you may not realise that you do so because you leave the room and you do your same routine day after day after day. And then the people that you wanted to include, so to say, are left hurting. And then where are you to pick them up? ‘Cause that was actually your job when you hired them in the first place or when you told everyone that you were rooting for them.
And so that is something I think we all have to learn, is really to be not just more accepting, but be more considerate. It doesn’t cost anything to ask people what pronouns they wanna be spoken to, how they feel in a given situation, do they feel comfortable, what would make them feel comfortable. All of those different things doesn’t cost anything. And I think that is something we all have to really deeply consider in our daily practices.
Amelia Hoy
And also, when you are in a position of power and you’re unsure about something, then there’s the wonderful power of asking a question. I think that, again, the power of conversation is very much about asking questions, what is a person’s take on what happened to this person, and having that, begin to unfold. Because there’s so many issues. And I’m sitting here, I’m thinking, “All right, so there’s side of this, and this… ” Based on everything we’ve talked about so far, what would you say we could begin to start to really focus on? Because, yes, it’s a huge problem that we’re not only lacking a representation on the catwalk, in the casting process, in the editorials, we’re also lacking representation in the designing room, we’re also lacking representation at the schools of design, because the representation of the teachers is not there. Okay, so where do we start and how can we work with what we have right now to begin, aside from being considerate, which I think is a huge first step, where else can we begin to put our energy and activism?
Heidi Hadassah Laura
I think, first of all, let’s think about this as a huge opportunity to define completely different groups to make great clothes for, great fashion for. Instead of thinking about it as something prohibitive, things we should not do, let’s look at all these people who have been under-serviced, who have not been able to get the kind of clothes that they actually want. And instead of forever designing, just as Moussa said, to the thin, rich, white girl, let’s do something for all the other people. That’s fantastic. That’s a really interesting situation. And once we get this process going, of course we need to… This is a deep thing. We really need to change our minds about this. So we need to see new pictures, we need to see fashion clothes presented in new ways, we so need to see different kinds of fashion shoots, different kinds of advertisements.
And it’s absolutely about seeing all kinds of skin colours, and body types, and ages. It’s even about, I think, linking up with sustainability and saying, “Well, maybe we shouldn’t just see new clothes forever.” We’re always seeing these new clothes. Maybe we should see beautifully worn clothes. Clothes that are good, but have been used for a long time. And the patina you get? That’s beautiful. Why shouldn’t we include that too? To learn how to change our mind and not think about clothes as something that we go and buy anew. Fashion now is the moment where you go and buy something new. That’s fucked up. We need fashion that’s really about how we live wonderfully with clothes, and keep adding to our collection of it, and it’s still fantastic. And we should reflect that. So I’m talking about inclusivity about old clothes too now, on top of all the other things we need to include. But this is about working on ourselves, imagining a different way of living with fashion.
Amelia Hoy
Thank you. And Vincent, what are you thinking as far as here today, going to the next show or the next casting? What could be changed?
Vincent Beier
I think people just need to be more considerate of each other. They need to treat people the same. Not only the thin, white, rich girl. They need to accept and respect the minorities that they’re trying to pull up. And accept when you’ve done something wrong. Yeah. I think.
Moussa Mchangama
That’s a good answer. Are you looking at me now?
Amelia Hoy
I’m looking at you.
Moussa Mchangama
Right, okay. So basically, I think what is important here is to realise that this industry, of course, is about money. So I think we as consumers should start using that power much more, and consider where our money ends. And that means considering, when we buy something… And we’ve spoken about the connectedness of obviously all of these social issues, in terms of sustainability, and I am a firm believer of the fact that we cannot divide economic, environmental and social issues when talking about sustainability, we always have to consider all three. So with that in mind, I think we need to think about our clothes and the garments that we buy as investments. And if we start to consider them investments, then we also should start to consider who we invest in when we buy them. And so can we invest, so to say, by buying things in businesses that are led by women? Businesses that are led by people of colour? Businesses that are led by minority groups? Businesses that support differently? People that use part of their income to invest in other businesses or NGOS? Stuff like that and really trying to consider that this industry has grown to a behemoth, it’s out of control, it’s so large. It’s one of the biggest industries globally, especially in terms of the number of people employed.
Moussa Mchangama
And so many people in this industry are oppressed, so if we can move sort of some of the money away from the big corporations, and into minor businesses, into different businesses that want different things, then I firmly believe that we can be part of that change. And whether you choose to support your different causes that’s up to you. But I think it’s important to consider that fact, that we actually have a much larger potential to move businesses than we think. And I think someone like the new… Or it’s not, it’s relatively new, but the Fenty brand, for example, that Rihanna is doing, is a very good example of big corporations even… And as much as I love the fact that she’s the first woman, and the first woman of colour to get a big brand under LVMH, it also pains me that she has a brand under LVMH, because at the end of the day she’s owned by white men. But of course, that’s incredibly powerful, that she can do a brand like that. And that is the result of awareness, and the awareness she’s creating, and most importantly of her approach to diversity, of saying, “This brand that I’m creating is for women. That means all women. That also means trans women, it also means older women, it also means bigger women, it means women of colour. It means women. And those are the people that I want to include.” That is somewhere to… I’m not saying you should go out and buy all Rihanna’s products. She has lots of money, I’m sure.
But that sort of approach I think, is inherently, to me at least, valuable. And then, the twist, of course, then comes when we also then have to consider environmental things, because of the designers that are promoting all of these amazing social values, are doing so by doing shitty polyester clothes, then we’re fucking back at status quo and destroying the planet while we’re liberating people. So we have to educate ourselves is what I’m saying. Because this, I think, is about liberation for a lot more people, and it takes all of us to create that process.
Amelia Hoy
Absolutely, and we need to make demands. I’m gonna finish by just saying that yesterday I attended a show by a Swedish fashion designer named Selam Fessahaye, and all of her models were of colour. After the show, she came out and most of the models came out in tears, because representation obviously matters. And it matters to see yourself and your culture viewed as beautiful. It means so much, and I think it’s a privilege a lot of people take for granted. So, yes.
[applause]
Again, we’re trying to start a conversation and that means also including you, so we would love to open for any questions if there are any. There probably are. Yes, please go ahead. All right, we’re gonna get a microphone first so that might make it a little easier to hear what you have to say. All right.
Audience Member:
I don’t know. Is it on? Yeah. Thank you for really enriching inputs. I was just today reading the release of LVMH’s accounting, and it’s going really well. I think they had a rise in 15% or something in turnover, and that’s brands that really mostly cater to rich, white, skinny girl. And I’m just curious about how you see this whole, apparently there is need, customers are willing to pay for that, to feed into that fantasy, so how do we deal with that? Is that just because they are under-educated or is that because there is a real human drive to feel superior or I don’t know. What do you think about that? Because they are just growing and growing and growing. So then they must cater to something that’s important.
Moussa Mchangama
May I start?
Amelia Hoy
Yes.
Moussa Mchangama
Consider the train of thought. So I think one of the reasons, obviously that they continue to grow these major corporations, LVMH Kering, best seller here, you name them. Obviously, it’s not because European consumers infinitely just buy more. It’s also, of course, a result of growing populations and growing numbers of people with a larger income investing in this so-called dream, investing in the status symbols that we in the west have decided that these showcase money, they display wealth so to say. I think that’s a major part of it. And when we’re talking about diversity, and all of these issues, I think one of the real problems is that we have not in Europe, at least, in the old sort of traditional west, what we call the west, considered the fact or allowed other nations, other parts of the world, to form their own value chain of what is actually wealth. How do we portray that?
They have had that previously, probably, and we’ve totally destroyed it. So we have forced them to adopt our notion of what looks wealthy and that, of course, means great things if you own LVMH, then you’re just like, you’re fine. But it also, of course, means that it’s very limited what other voices are there in other markets, and of course the entire world shouldn’t be dressed in things created in Paris. It should be the other way around, basically. And that I think is a structural thing that we were seeing. And one of the things that is, I think that might happen in the future a bit, is actually that we’ll see political actions taken to limit that, because that can quite easily be limited via import and export taxes. It has been done so before. That’s one of the reasons that the west started expanding so much and the lifestyle industry grew, was because they were allowed to export their goods. So that can be controlled again, basically if we want it. We created the system, we can also create it back to where it was before.
Amelia Hoy
Yeah. Greed, huh? They have that bag. I want that bag. Ooh, Kardashians have all that stuff. I want that stuff. When does it stop? When does it stop? More isn’t… It’s completely unsustainable for all of us to own Chanel bags. It is. The whole planet’s supposed to have those bags? It’s not gonna work, but I think we’re still at that tipping point of looking at what is valuable to me. And I think until people sit down and use their voices, use their consumer dollars, or Kroner or Euros or Yen, it’s gonna continue to be this lemming thing, “Oh, they have this, I want that.” But if you really sit with yourself, and I’m such an optimist for saying it, I think that if you really sit with yourself, and really think about what is it I want? What is it that’s gonna make me happy? Then you would see a really drastic shift in consumer behaviour and in the demands that we’re making to these companies. We’ve seen it with the way we eat.
If you don’t… You eat junk food, you feel like junk, so there’s a bit of that, and I think just talking about this, begins to get us to think about it. The wealthiest part of the world needs to stop consuming at the rate we consume everything, bags, food, cheap food, that sort of thing. And we’re beginning to think about it, but it’s a shift and Moussa is right, if what we’re marketing to the rest of the world is, “Look at this, you could have all these stuff if you just buy all the stuff that we buy because we’re… This is the top of the top, top of the pops.” So yeah, political change, hold your politicians accountable, really think about it when you buy something, really think about who you’re supporting and where that money is going. Yeah, yeah, please go… Question.
Audience Member 2
Thank you all so much for being on stage, so we’ve spoken a lot about this skinny, rich, white girl quite a lot. We’re having this conversation in Copenhagen, and I’ve never seen any more skinny rich white girls more than ever [laughter] than anywhere else I’ve ever been. So and on top of that, a lot of the case studies you’ve brought forward, apart from your specific one, Vincent, have been quite global, of a global brand or big luxury labels that operate globally, but I’m wondering what you guys think is the nuance of this conversation in Copenhagen or in Denmark where it’s a homogenous society, too many people. Does that make your course harder and if so, how? And yeah, I just wanted to hear you speak a bit more on that nuance.
Amelia Hoy
I’ve got a little one on that, just having seen a lot of fashion shows the past couple of days, I would like to challenge the idea of what being Scandinavian looks like. I would like to challenge the idea of what looking Danish or Swedish looks like as was challenged yesterday and as is challenged hopefully, here. We are… This is a homogenous country and a very homogenous city, and within the industry, you’re looking at an even smaller group of people that are even allowed into this very exclusive world. But that doesn’t mean that the rest of the society isn’t looking because just like the example about, “Oh, I want a Chanel bag.” Or “I want a Louis Vuitton piece of something, because I saw it on Instagram.” So many people are watching us, we are in a position of power as being part of this industry and little kids will and often come up to me when we come out of fashion shows and go, “Oh wow, this, that,” and “Oh, but you’re brown like me, all the other girls coming out are white. Oh wow, so I could be part of this too?” I said, “Yeah, of course you could be part of this too.”
But it takes… We think with representation, we think it takes a whole army. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it only takes a couple of people that you notice, so yes, of course, Denmark isn’t gonna all of a sudden transform. But there’s more and more second, third, fourth, fifth generation people growing up here who don’t fit the generic mold of what the rest of the world thinks Denmark looks like, and there’s more and more of that coming up. And I think that is being embraced certainly in the music industry, but also slowly within the fashion industry, and it’s extremely important.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
I think we also have a chance to really use Denmark as a wonderful lab because it’s a small country and really homogenous. When people… When change comes, it comes quite fast, it’s… Today it’s obvious for any Dane that you should have long maternity leave or you should have equal pay and treatment, we’re not there yet, but the idea is… So Denmark has ability to change fast because it is a very, very conform culture. So usually when change begins and a certain critical mass is there, you see change happening really fast, this is what we’re seeing happening now with the organic stuff. Just within a few years, this is becoming so the obvious thing for so many more people. So I think for a really deep transformation of fashion, Denmark is such a great place, and it’s even greater because Denmark has the attention just now of the world when it comes to fashion, maybe not the world, but… And a lot more attention because Copenhagen just now is at the center of all of Scandinavia. It’s even, we see a lot of German brands, even Dutch brands coming up here for Fashion Week, so all eyes on Denmark. So this is a wonderful place to stub the experiment on how do we completely think differently about fashion and make a fashion that’s inclusive of all.
Amelia Hoy
Yeah.
Moussa Mchangama
But I’m actually not sure that I agree that it’s easy.
Heidi Hadassah Laura
No, not easy, nothing is easy.
Moussa Mchangama
Because or that we move fast, ’cause I think there is something, especially for minority people in the narrative that we are all equal here. That is actually incredibly oppressing because it takes away any sort of…
[applause]
Moussa Mchangama
Thank you… Any sort of potential to say, “I am oppressed, you are oppressing me.” Because people are saying, “Oh, it can’t be that bad that we still… You still have free health care… ”
Heidi Hadassah Laura
You misunderstood me.
Moussa Mchangama
“You still have all these… ” And sure, you do if you compare to global countries, but now we’re sitting here, so that’s the major issue. And I think when promoting or coming forth with some of those issues and saying, “This is incredibly hurtful or this is incredibly bad or this is incredibly oppressing,” There’s a certain level of not understanding that in a Danish context, that quite often comes out I think, because we have this idea of equality and everyone having the same, being the same, which of course is a blur, we don’t all have the same in this country and we don’t all come from the same experiences. And so I think part of it is also… And this is where it gets more personal, to work in this industry, to work in any culture industry, media for example, is also to realise your own potential and your own privilege, I’m extremely privileged to sit here for example. That also gives me a lot of responsibility. And I think I can… And I don’t know if I can speak for all of us, but I think I can, in saying that when you do get a foot in the door and a stronghold in this industry, I think it also… It took me a number years to realise how many people I can pull with me through that door once I’m there, and that it actually has a lot of potential.
Amelia Hoy
Yes.
Moussa Mchangama
To pave the way sort of. And I’m not saying that I’m the only one who’s paving in the way here, I’m clearly not. But being aware of that, when I was an editor at, I’ve been an editor of several different magazines here in Denmark, I will absolutely not hide the fact that I completely favoured, queer experiences, people of colour, every… I was like, “Yes, I will write you down in my magazine,” ’cause no one fucking else did, there was no room for it. I was like, “I will be the one who will do it.” And then sometimes maybe the product isn’t as good, maybe the story isn’t as good, but I will give you a voice here. And that is something I can do while I have this platform. When I leave it, I hope someone else will be there to take it. And I think we all sort of have to realise that.
Amelia Hoy
We have to lift each other up. And yeah…
[applause]
Amelia Hoy
And as Vincent also mentioned, when you have power, you have responsibility. You also mentioned this, and that’s why the skinny white girl is so important. She’s great. She can open a lot of doors. She can lift up a lot of people. We need her. It’s not about getting rid of her. It’s about showing more of all the others. That’s what this is about.
Thank you all so much, this was wonderful.
[applause]
Thank you to our participants and thank you to everyone for joining us.
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